Episode Transcript

Between Versus Among
Episode 26: November 17, 2006

Grammar Girl here.

Today I have two topics for you: toward versus towards and between versus among.

Toward Versus Towards

Jamie, Mia, Beverly, and Gen all wrote to me wondering what the difference is between the words toward and towards (with an s). The bottom line seems to be that toward and towards are both correct and interchangeable: you can use either one because they mean the same thing. Many sources say that the s is more common in Britain than in the United States (1,2,3), so you should take into account what the convention is in your country and use towards in Britain and toward in the U.S.

The story is similar when you need to decide between the words backward or backwards. Most references say that, like towards, backwards is standard in Britain and backward is standard in America. The exception is that when you are using backward as an adjective, as in her grandmother's backward ways or the program has backward compatibility, then you never use the s. It is always backward as an adjective.

So I guess if you are in the U.S. you have it easier because you can just remember that it's always backward without the s. We like short-cuts here, such as eating dinner in our cars, so you can remember that we've lopped off the s. But if you are using British English, then you have to remember that it's backwards as an adverb and backward as an adjective.

Between Versus Among

Now, maybe you noticed that when I was choosing between words before, I used the word between and not the word among. Allison pointed out the distinction to me last month, and I commissioned another cartoon to help everyone remember that you use between when you are writing about two things and among when you are writing about more than two things. That's a quick and dirty tip, and there are exceptions, but if you remember that between is for two things and among is for more than two things, then you'll be right most of the time (4,5,6,7).

I'm expecting to hear a collective groan about the corny mnemonic that I'm going to give you, but I do think it will help you remember when to use the word between. Here's the sentence: "Steve dreaded choosing between the bees and the tweens." The idea is that Steve is choosing between two different groups--bees and tweens--and the correct word is between.

For those of you who might not know, tween is a word that's used in the press to describe kids who are at that weird stage between childhood and their teenage years. Depending on whom you ask, a tween can be a youth who is anywhere from 8 to 14 years old.

If you go to the Grammar Girl section at QuickandDirtyTips.com, you can see the cartoon of Steve making the difficult choice between the bees and the tweens. He has a group at each side, and he's wondering whether he wants to get stung or deal with tweens begging for cell phones. I hope the cartoon will help you remember that he is choosing bee-tween the two groups.

I know some of the more advanced listeners will be wondering about the exception to that rule, and in the listener survey people have complained that I don't always go into enough detail, so here's the deal: you can use the word between when you are talking about distinct individual items even if there are more than two of them. For example, you would say, "She chose between Harvard, Brown, and Yale" because the colleges are individual items she is choosing between. On the other hand, if you were talking about the colleges collectively you would say, "She chose among the Ivy League schools."

To me, these distinctions can be very subtle, so you should do more reading to help you fully understand the exceptions. And, for those of you who are interested, I put a bunch of links at the web site.

And again, I want to emphasize the quick and dirty rule: most of the time you will be safe using between for two items and among for more than two items.


More online reading:

Dictionary.com entry for between

Dr. Grammar entry for between versus among

TECHWR-L post about using between with more than two items

Grammar Police entry for between versus among (This includes some of the very helpful dictionary entries that I reference below, but that I hesitated to reproduce because of copyright issues.)

 

About the Transcripts

So now, about the transcripts: Over 1,100 people took the poll and 76 percent of you would give up transcripts to have more frequent podcasts. On the other hand, many of the minority who want transcripts made impassioned pleas that I'm finding hard to resist, so I decided on a compromise: I will produce full transcripts at least once a week, and then if I do more than one podcast a week, I will probably do shorter show notes with the main points and references. I hope this is a compromise that will make everyone happy. And thank you so much to everyone who took the time to vote and write. Also, a lot of people misunderstood and thought that my problem is typing the transcripts, but the time-consuming part is actually proofreading and copyediting the transcripts, so unfortunately, transcription software or services aren't going to help.

Contact Info

E-mail: feedback@quickanddirtytips.com

Voice-mail: 206-338-GIRL (4475)

References

  1. Goldstein, N., ed. The Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual. Reading: Perseus Books, 1998, p. 208.
  2. Burchfield, R.W., ed. The New Fowler's Modern English Usage. Third edition. New York: Oxford, 1996, p. 788.

  3. The American Heritage College Dictionary. Third edition. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1993, p.1431.

  4. Goldstein, N., ed. The Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual. Reading: Perseus Books, 1998, p. 12.

  5. The American Heritage College Dictionary. Third edition. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1993, p. 132. [Note: this entry includes an excellent discussion of the exceptions to the quick and dirty rule presented in this podcast.]

  6. Burchfield, R.W., ed. The New Fowler's Modern English Usage. Third edition. New York: Oxford, 1996, p. 106. [Note: this entry includes many examples of how to use between when more than two items are being discussed.]

  7. Scharton, M., and Neuleib, J. Things Your Grammar Never Told You. New York: Longman, 2001, p. 61.


 

 


Comments (31) for Between Versus Among |  Subscribe to Comment

Gail Says:
10/18/2008 11:41:40 AM
Cute site and interesting discussion, but one of your correct usage examples contains an idiom error. One doesn't choose among various things; one chooses from them.
deborahzlocker Says:
10/15/2008 1:39:29 AM
Thanks grammar girl...I got more knowledge from u
Kristal Says:
10/14/2008 1:37:43 AM
Basically, toward and towards mean the same thing just like backward and backwards mean the same, so the only difference is an extra s for those who are from Britian and without an s for those who live in the U.S. ummm okay I see.:)
Lauren Says:
9/29/2008 2:00:04 PM
What's the difference between using Looking toward vs. looks toward. Just curious, thanks.
sarzkie Says:
8/6/2008 9:33:10 AM
Thanks for the info.thats all.
Dr. No Says:
6/13/2008 12:28:27 AM
Another grammar guide that perpetuates this ridiculous 'rule'. What you describe as the subtle 'exception' to the between/among rule is not an exception but the actual contrast in the meaning between the two words. Between is generally used to relate discrete objects, while among is generally used to relate an action or object to collectives or masses. There are indeed subtleties in use, but they all reflect this basic idea. To use among when referring to discrete objects when there are more than two of them is not a rule; in fact it is incorrect and distorts the meaning of among. Consider: 'There was anger between the supporters.' There was anger among the supporters.' The first sentence indicates that supporters were angry with each other, the second that the supporters were angry with someone else. Or: 'I walked among the hills' vs 'I walked between the hills.' In neither is the number of hills specified. The first means I followed a roundabout path. The second means I walked in the valley. To use among instead of between in cases such as 'I chose among the three options,' or 'The differences among school, college and university' is to lose the genuine distinction in meaning between the two words. Please don't perpetuate this nonsense because it is more easily transmitted in a sound bite or slogan.
johnboy Says:
4/30/2008 8:51:43 AM
> "She chose among the Ivy League schools." Would it not also be possible to say "She chose FROM among the Ivy League schools."?
alma Says:
4/28/2008 11:57:55 AM
can u elaborate more about the topic...anyway,thanks for all the info..
john Says:
4/24/2008 11:12:08 AM
For as long as English has been written down, "between" has been used with more than two items.
bob Says:
4/7/2008 12:19:19 PM
this is crap
irene Says:
3/9/2008 8:09:57 AM
i know this site from Oprah Winfrey's show. i watched it about several days ago and then i said, Oh my God, i have to visit this site. this site will be my favorite site i think because i really love English, i love the lesson since i was in elementary school. in my country, Indonesia, English is a quite difficult lesson, but many people can speak English quite fluently. i am 20th years old girl and I'm a student and also an English teachers for elementary student, but I'm not teaching at school instead at a local course.thanks Grammar Girl.
nik Says:
2/20/2008 1:12:17 AM
no comment
Kate Says:
2/16/2008 4:42:20 AM
Hi Grammar Girl, This specific episode leaves me wondering what the difference is between the words "among" and "amongst." Is it like the difference between toward and towards, where among is standard in one location, while amongst is more common in a different location, or do these words have different meanings or usages? Thanks for all the great work on the podcast; I find it extremely helpful.
shahira Says:
1/4/2008 5:47:05 AM
this is a great site
shahira Says:
1/4/2008 5:45:24 AM
great site
Kelly Says:
10/5/2007 7:57:33 PM
This website is so helpful. I finally know when to use who and whom form this website and between and among!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Thanks GrammarGirl!
Nicole Says:
9/19/2007 2:12:26 PM
Your site helps me enormously. I don’t have an official language (half English, half French). The simple rules are what help me understand. The clarity of the complementary narration is excellent! Thank you!
aardvark Says:
5/31/2007 12:55:06 AM
Hi Brittany, Glad to see you are a budding playwright. The correct phrase is "back and forth." Hope this helps.
Brittany! Says:
5/31/2007 12:39:27 AM
Hello. I was having trouble with some writing. I'm writing a script for school, and I wanted to know if the right term is "back and fourth" or "bank-and-fourth". Can someone help me?
NIKKI Says:
5/9/2007 8:40:36 PM
I absolutely love your podcast, I am a "writer" and even I get stumped on basics (editor is my friend)so I love the refresher!
Barbara Says:
4/1/2007 1:35:32 PM
Just looking to subscribe! Always looking to improve my grammar.
Kishor Says:
3/30/2007 7:08:59 PM
I reached this Between vs Among web page by following the link "Toward vs Towards" link in the archives. Can you please correct this. Thanks Best
Rob Says:
3/29/2007 3:52:14 PM
Thanks for the concise explanation! By the way, this page is the first proper page to display when I googled "toward towards word grammar". The higher results were all quotes but did not reference anything I was after. :)
Mary Says:
3/28/2007 3:28:10 PM
thanks for the wonderful website
Desperate Says:
2/6/2007 10:19:45 PM
I am having difficulty with proofreading transcription and would like some tips. If I am able to let my work sit and go back to it, I never have any problems, and the same with proofing from a printed copy, but with transcription I am required to turn it around immediately, and I am not able to print my work. I will try reading my work backwards but was wondering if you have anymore tips relating specifically to transcription. Being paid by production with immediate turn around requirements makes quality difficult when as the options are so limited.
Ian Khoo Says:
12/31/2006 4:26:20 AM
*groans at mnemonic* Please don't do that, it really hurts. =p
Kian Says:
11/25/2006 7:13:02 AM
Or the woman, actually.
Kian Says:
11/25/2006 7:11:50 AM
Grammar Girl, you're the man!
Tim Says:
11/21/2006 6:41:19 AM
I am new to Podcasts and love Grammar Girl.
James Welborn Says:
11/17/2006 4:45:17 PM
Another note, this one on usage. Above, I use the term 'white trash,' which I know can be considered racist, like "white slavery." Those terms, along with things like calling a female college student a 'co-ed," rely on the noun in the phrase to be something not usually associated with the adjective. Along a more subtle line, it's like those old riddles that go something like: A man and his son are in a car crash. The father dies instantly and the son is rushed to the hospital, needing an emergency operation. However, the doctor on duty says, "I can't do the surgery because this is my son!" (I'm sure it was a harder riddle in the '50s.) I don't have a real grammar point here (although you might be able to use it somewhere), I just wanted to mention the controversy. My usage of 'white trash,' however, is kind of rhetorical. The term 'trash' itself just doesn't connote the same thing, despite being race-neutral.
James Welborn Says:
11/17/2006 4:16:49 PM
This is one of my pet peeves (towards vs. toward, et cetera), even though I know it's not a big deal. The 's' at the end just sounds somehow wrong, and I think a lot of people use the toward/toward, backward/backwards interchangeability to make bad choices with other "ward" words, like "forward" or "afterward," neither of which sound right to me with an 's' at the end. Maybe I'm just being too picky. The English vs. American usages is an interesting point, though. I grew up poor and white trash, yet language was one way in which we tried to distinguish ourselves. The 's'es on those words sound lower class to me, and it occurs to me now that my prejudice there may stem from the English versus American usages. Growing up, I always wrote 'theatre' and 'grey' in papers (and was sometimes dinged on it by teachers) probably because I read a lot of British books. 'Toward' and 'towards' may be part of the same bias. Anyway (or is that 'anyways'? -- another pet peeve :) ), I've been wanting to write to you to ask if you had any favorite grammar jokes. There's, of course, the old classic "eats, shoots and leaves," but I have a different one. A cab driver picks up a passenger at the Boston airport. The passenger asks, "So, where's the best place for a guy to get scrod around here?" The driver replies: "Wow. You don't hear the pluperfect subjunctive much these days!"

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